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The Birth of Change in Irish Education with particular reference to Business Studies.
T.J. Rigney

Introduction

Up to the seventies there were no undergraduate Business Studies degrees outside of the Universities in Ireland. In addition the seed corn of third level education, second level education had not developed Business Studies in their curriculum leading to the Leaving Certificate Examination. This article attempts to put the new changes that took place in Irish Education in perspective.
    What follows focuses on the birth of change in Irish Education. It centres on a challenging interview with Dr. Hillery who was the Minister for Education and had unique insights when the concept of Investment in Irish Education was conceived. Business Studies in the Regional Technical College sector grew out of Hillery’s initiatives. The increased participation at second level and the development of the business studies curriculum at second level were the key drivers of the new third level institutions in Ireland. The period being addressed was a time of preparation for Ireland’s entry to the European Union. It will be presented as follows:

            1.          Background.

2.          The Birth of Educational Change in Ireland.

3.          Higher Education.

4.          Regional Technical Colleges.

5.          Business Studies.

6.          The Ministers own Schooling.

7.          Reflections as Minister for Education.

8.          Hillery’s other Ministers.

9.          Concluding Comments.

1. Background

Dr. Hillery was Minister for Education from 1959 to 1965 and was one of the longest serving Ministers for Education since the establishment of the Irish Department of Education in 1922. He was unique in setting the agenda for change in Irish Education. According to O’Buachalla (1988) in his book Education Policy in Twentieth Century Ireland Hillery’s term of office coincided with a growing demand for change and with an improving economic climate which could provide resources to finance reform. Mulcahy (1981) suggested: 

             Prime among the objectives sought by Dr. Hillery was the expansion of facilities to cater for the increased participation in technical and other forms of applied education especially commercial and business studies. (Curriculum & Policy in Irish Post-Primary Education, D.G. Mulcahy, 1981) p. 21.  

Coolahan (1981) in referring to Hillery’s speech in 1963 claimed that this was a major policy speech which contained seminal ideas that were to show results in the following years.

            Dr. Hillery was born on May 2nd 1923 in Miltown Malbay, Co. Clare. He was educated in Rockwell College in Cashel and studied Medicine at University College Dublin where he qualified as a Medical Doctor in 1947. In 1952 he received an honorary doctorate from the National University of Ireland and in 1962 University of Dublin Trinity College conferred him with an honorary Doctorate. Other honorary doctories conferred on him included University of Melbourne Australia 1985, Limerick University 1990, Pontifical University Maynooth 1988 and the National Council for Educational Awards 2000.

             Hillery’s appointments included Minister for Education 1959 to 1965, Minister for Industry and Commerce 1965, to 1966, Minister for Labour 1966 to 1969, Minister for Foreign Affairs 1969 to 1972. When Ireland joined the European Union (then known as the Common Market) in 1973 he became Ireland’s first European Commissioner in Brussels. He held this post from 1973 to 1976 when he became President of Ireland. He was President of Ireland for the following fourteen years, which is the maximum term for a President under the Irish Constitution. Because of his unique role in Irish education an extensive interview sought by this researcher from Dr. Hillery is presented in this chapter. The findings provide a unique insight into sowing the seeds for change in Higher Education in Ireland. During this time as Minister for Education there was growing political party competition by Fine Gael and Labour on education policies and this exercised pressure on Hillery to speed up change. A Government statement in 1959 committed it to educational expansion and a statement by Hillery in 1963 was more specific and mentioned the concept of Regional Technical Colleges which were opened in the late sixties in Waterford, Carlow, Athlone and Galway and added to in the seventies in other locations throughout the country. Indeed Blanchardstown College in Dublin is being constructed at the time of writing. Many significant developments such as the extension of Business Studies at second level and the development of Business Studies in the Regional Technical Colleges have come to fruition from Hillery’s period of office as Minister for Education 1959 to 1965.

             In this interview, conducted at The Marine Hotel, Sutton, Co. Dublin on 28/7/00, Dr. Hillery described the state of Education in Ireland during his own schooling and in the late fifties. He explains the plans to increase participation in second level education and the extension of the curriculum. Three Business Studies subjects were created known as Accounting, Business Organisation and Economics at pass and honours levels. Leaving Certificate studies in the fifties was confined to specific secondary schools and was not provided in Vocational Schools. All students attending Vocational Schools at the time could sit for the Group Certificate Examinations after two years study. Students of vocational schools would then pursue apprenticeships or return to work on the farms owned by their parents. On the other hand secondary schools such as the Christian Brothers and the Mercy convents educated pupils for University education. Third level education was almost entirely confined to the Universities and limited to Dublin, Cork and Galway.

             He discusses his own role as setting the scene for his ideas and his relationship with the Taoiseach Mr. Sean Lemass. He also emphasises the economy and unemployment leading to high emigration and the important role for second and third level education in this environment in the fifties and early sixties in Ireland. His experience in Brussels from 1973 to 1977 as the first Irish European Commissioner is also useful. During this time Ireland became part of a bigger Europe with no protective tariffs. It was anticipated that on joining the community the Irish motor assembly industry would close leading to many job losses such as the Ford plant in Cork. In addition the Irish textile industry closed leading to many job losses in that sector.

             One message comes through loud and clear: the new economy in Ireland and Europe that was to follow demanded an educated work force not in the old traditional classical education but in Business Studies and Engineering and Science.

  INTERVIEW

  2.         The Birth of Educational Change in Ireland

 Dr. Hillery explained that when Mr. Sean Lemass became leader of Fianna Fail in 1959 he sought a meeting with him urgently. At this meeting Lemass said to him:            

You got away from my predecessor Mr. deValera but you will not get away from me. I want you in the Cabinet.

Dr. Hillery at the time was a practising medical doctor in Clare and pointed out that he had much to do, such as the delivery of new babies. Lemass agreed that he could finish out his medical work and later announced in the Dail that Dr. Hillery would be the new Minister for Education as Jack Lynch the then Minister for Education was being moved to the Department of Industry and Commerce.

When Dr. Hillery was asked about his early years in education he recalled  

             You start off with the mind set that was there at the time.

He was concerned about the people in the National Schools, people who did not get any opportunity, they got nothing after finishing or leaving National School education in Ireland. He explained how he brought in scholarships, but found that if there was enough scholarships for all they could not be kept in secondary schools and they could not be all provided with skills.              

I got deeper and deeper into it, we needed to develop the other forms of education, the technological and we needed to widen the secondary. I got a general plan and I announced it at the General Election in 1961 in a broadcast.

His feeling was that all students could start off together. However, he pointed out that there was no money available for educational changes but that schools could be combined and expensive areas like science could be shared. The vocational schools (technical schools) at the time were only providing two year courses leading to the group certificate in education. He emphasised that this form of education was looked down on at the time and did not hold high recognition by the community.  

              I had a general plan in my mind which I gave on a television programme.

 The intention was that the vocational school and secondary school would have a two year course leading to the Intermediate Certificate and after that pupils would stream into technological and academic. At Leaving Certificate there would be another division driving students into technological colleges and universities. Hillery suggested the idea was simple, the scholarships were not good at the time, there was not enough to put anyone through education, so the big problem the big political problem he claimed was that there was a large area of need for buildings, for teachers and extension of opportunities in education. He emphasised that private enterprise was not going to supply the resources and at the same time they did not want the state involved in education. He stated:  

              It was almost dogma that the churches did not want the state in education, and it was a very brave act that brought in the vocational schools in 1931 and they were down graded in the public esteem immediately.

 Mulcahy (1981) pointed out that there was concern about the traditional pattern of post primary education in Ireland as it was not sufficiently well articulated with emerging needs and possibilities in economic development. According to Mulcahy this was to be a bold attempt to set post-primary education in Ireland on a new pathway. Dr. Hillery explained his work on the matter this way:            

The first step was to get a party political decision that the State must take responsibility and have a role. I went to Sean Lemass the then Taoiseach and I explained it to him. It was not going to be done by private enterprise and the state needed it and the students needed it. However, it would not be done, extra educational provision of finance required would not be given. Sean Lemass then said to me “you write it, I’ll say it, put a sentence into the Ard Dheis speech”. That was the beginning of the State coming in to full responsibility in education.  

Then I found I was dealing with subjects I did not know. I was not an educationalist I was a medical doctor. I had been through the system, so I organised a committee in the Department of Education of Inspectors. I told the Secretary of the Department, to go down the line, not to select the old fellows as they were fixed in their minds. The committee worked at producing the accurate education needs that would be put into a paper for the Government.

Coolahan (1981) claims that changes in Ireland were being influenced by Ireland’s expanding links with overseas organisations such as the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development. Dr. Hillery recalled in his interview with this researcher that almost coincidental with his plans set out above he was attending meetings with the OECD. The OECD had done studies on underdeveloped countries and they mentioned at one of their meetings that they would like to pursue studies for developed and developing countries.       

I (Hillery) went to the Government which was regarded as not the thing to do to get the OECD to study Irish education. The Government bravely agreed - it was going to show up all the gaps.  

Dr. Hillery recalled the committee he appointed to run this study at home. The Members appointed were Paddy Lynch Chairman, Mr. MacGearalt from Education and Mr. O’Donnell from the University sector. He announced it by telling one of the television shows the name of the chairman and he called it “Investment in Education”. Up to then he pointed out that he was dealing with the Department of Finance and if they had money they would give it but it would not be much due to constraints. 

             

I had to turn around the attitude that the talent was our riches and that he would invest in that. That’s the most important thing that was done I think. I did one other thing at the time and it was symbolic. I got a comprehensive school idea and the idea was not like the English colleges. It was to have a full range of subjects and we invited people in secondary schools to join it. I got one built in West Connemara, Galway and another in Shannon, just to show the status coming in of building post primary schools.  

According to Mulcahy (1981) Dr. Hillery initiated the dynamic of expansion in technical and related forms of applied education particularly business studies. On the 20th May, 1963 Hillery presented his major and important statement, giving an outline plan which as well as attempting to achieve these objectives would constitute the first steps towards a new system of post primary education. The statement also announced the building of Regional Technical Colleges. Hillery explained the birth of the 1963 document this way:  

The big political change was getting the state to take over its responsibility and knocking down the opposition. I had a tough time with the Bishops they did not want that. The Government had responsibility for Primary and Vocational but beyond that there was no Government involvement. It was very deficient, but no one saw it as deficient over all. I saw people who did not get a chance, but as I went deeper into it, I saw that you had to extend the system and then I found only the State could do it. The State had to be persuaded Lemass was very good but the Department of Finance did not want to expand the money.

Sean Lemass was the Head of the Government, the Taoiseach who appointed Dr. Hillery as Minister for Education, his support for an agenda for change in Irish education would be very important.  

          

I got a programme of what was needed and I went through the system. I sent a document to the Department of Finance and they sent it back, saying it could not be done. I sent it maybe three times with variations and it was turned down. Then I asked for an appointment with Lemass. I told him my story. He said that myself, Jim Ryan the Minister for Finance and himself should meet. The three of us met and I had the documents to discuss. Jim Ryan agreed and Lemass agreed, I was delighted. Lemass said “you will not get that through the Government”. So the mind set of the Government had not changed. What will I do with it? Lemass said “announce it”. I then gave a press conference in May 1963.  

Referring to the opposition parties in Dail Eireann at the time, Dr. Hillery said he did not get much from them. Noel Browne was asking questions and he was very angry and delayed time but no one criticised it. It was well received according to Hillery.  

Questions were being asked by the opposition parties, “when will it happen”? “When will it happen”? Of course the Department of Education were not ready for it. It took quite a while according to Hillery, but there was nothing wrong in the political world really he said.

Sean Lemass had pointed out to Dr. Hillery that his agenda for change in Irish Education would receive opposition from members of the Government and the Bishops of the Catholic Church.             

The first objector was Charlie McCarthy who was a friend of mine, he said his union was not consulted, but you couldn’t consult on a thing like that. I was down recently in Limerick in St. Munchin’s, they asked me to launch their two centuries - I don’t know why they picked on me but anyway, I opened the school there. I said the last time I was here I was attached by a bishop, they got a kick out of that. I remember just that time, Bishop Browne of Galway came over to me “you are changing education”. I said how is the golf my Lord? He said “you are making big changes in education” - are you golfing at all my Lord. He got the message after a while that I wasn’t going to talk.
The fact that Sean Lemass was Taoiseach meant a lot. He would go with an idea if you had it. Jack Lynch was also supportive.  

  3.         Higher Education

Logan (1999) pointed out that Patrick Hillery would signpost the way to a future where the work of the vocational school would be fundamentally transformed. This would also feed into the third level system and provide opportunities and competition for places on courses. Hillery recalls a speech to graduates in University College Dublin when he was Minister for Education:                

I was asked one night to a dinner of the graduates. Just that evening they phoned up, to know would I speak. I hate speaking anyway. I said what will I say, when you’re young you will say anything. I made a speech saying that no longer in the near future will a person knock at the door of a university and have money and get in. You will have to compete. I was still Minister for Education, and they didn’t like it naturally because they were the ones that got in with the money - the graduates of University College, Dublin. I remember they talked while I was talking they didn’t like it. Afterwards Cearbhall O’Dalaigh made a remark to me - he said “they’re so stupid they did not understand what you were at”. But I was telling them that quite soon a person going up to the door of the university and knocking will not get in. He will get in, off his Leaving Certificate, he will get in on results. It was a sudden speech, they gave me two hours notice.  

Coolahan (1981) suggested that the setting up of a Commission on Higher Education by the Government in 1960 was an indication of the need for a new appraisal of the existing third level structures and provisions and of the need for new guidelines for the future of third level in Ireland.                

I was disappointed at the beginning. I had in my head, I was fresh, I came in as a doctor, if I could get seven or eight people who knew education and make a commission I could do the same for higher education as post primary. I went to the Government with it and I came back with twenty six names. So you had this thing always, representation of every section. As I said I had six or seven picked people who knew their business, but the Government wanted to add on representatives of farmers etc. Dr. Morris Archbishop of Cashel said don’t have two Bishops on it. Normally before that a Bishop would have been chairman and I said we won’t have that now. I asked Cearbhall O’Dalaigh the Chief Justice at some function we were at down in Shelbourne Hall, one of the big embassy receptions, would he be Chair of the Commission, but he did fair dues to him. He was reluctant to take it on, it was a big job.  

Researching in 1995 White suggested that the map for higher education in Ireland was to be radically different from anything envisaged or projected by the members of the Commission on Higher Education.                

I think the fault was the Government, as I said I wanted seven or eight people and I came out of that meeting with twenty three people. It was representative instead of people that would be valuable. They were not interested in vocational technological, they were not on the same wavelength - they were all representatives of different segments of the community. They were protective of universities as they were then.  

4.         Regional Technical Colleges

 O’Buachalla (1988) suggested that by 1963 the central issues in Irish education had been quantified and defined. Dr. Hillery’s major policy statement on 20th May 1963 contained many of the reforms for the long term future of Irish education. This is the first time that Regional Technical Colleges were mentioned and the Governments intention to establish them and the promotion of higher technological education.                  

I am sorry I have not got a copy of the T.V. political broadcast. I had a bit of fun with it, it came out in the form of a H, the two streams crossing over. H for Hillery. My first idea for Regional Technical Colleges was that they would get post primary at third level and that’s why I had the H two levels up to Leaving Certificate. But from that start I envisaged in my ignorance that you could take people from either stream of Leaving Certificate and cross them over again. Let them pick what subjects they wanted to do in third level education. But it all got taken up in the further study. My idea was that you could cross after three years and do academic or vocational and then have a chance to cross over again and maybe get back into the academic third level or back into a new third level. 
I had a feeling that Regional Technical Colleges would have some amount of third level. That’s why I thought you could cross over twice. They said it could not be done once they specialised. The thing was to keep specialisation out a bit early.

Mulcahy (1981) claimed that the year 1964 marked a significant year for expansion in the Department of Education. A site for the first Regional Technical College for Carlow was announced and emphasised that it was at the planning stage.                

With regard to Carlow the first mentioned RTC. It was my view that Carlow being associated with sugar manufacture would take care of vegetable development and production. There would be another one in Galway. Donegal wanted one because Blayney wanted it. That was no harm either - he fought for that at the Government.
RTC's - its amazing how things take on a life of their own and work out much better that you would have ever foreseen.

5. Business Studies

Clancy (2000) suggested that business studies comprises vocational orientation and is practical and applied. Mulcahy (1981) claimed that almost any area of study can qualify for study under vocational studies. Conventionally vocational subjects tended to be woodwork, metalwork, technical drawing and building construction but more recently according to Mulcahy business studies have come to be spoken in like terms. He recalls his thinking in respect of business studies when he was Minister for education:                

I just saw the need for it and I said it. You see, education in Ireland was an education for failures. It was based on the church needs, so that first of all there were priests and then teachers and they got the thick of the crop and of course the civil servants. It was strange when you think of it, they had great power because they supplied the civil service out of every college - the top of the college entered. There was an economic need because people would have to get jobs, as soon as possible. Some got into teaching and the civil service - they were getting the top of each school. There wasn’t a structure and a great many people got excluded. The people that didn’t get in were failures, they did not fail the Leaving Certificate but the didn’t get the places. So that was an important Psychological thing for people.  
When I was in university, the degree for business was the B.Comm. and it was looked down on. Even when I was a Minister the B.Comm. was still looked down on. It did not have the character that it has got now. The business opportunities were not there. I suppose people felt that business is something you would pick up.
I spotted business studies and commercial education - I spotted it as a gap. I remember going to the Irish Management Institute when I was Minister for Education.

Reference to how business studies was to be developed, is very scarce in the literature. Many are divided as to whether it came about by chance or accident. Today business studies forms a large part of any Institute of Technology, providing National Certificates, National Diplomas, Bachelor Degrees and post graduate programmes. Specialisations include marketing, financial accounting, business information systems, human resource management and business management.  

The new business studies subjects at second level in accounting, business organisation and economics have also motivated students in their destination to third level. He explained the background like this: 

We didn’t set up any business studies that I know of. The Irish Management Institute came about - I remember making speeches about education. The first speech I made it was to Ceards Fail and it was very basic, and that what education was there was good.
I remember addressing businessmen about the need to have a good cutting edge to what you were doing and to be able to compete. I suppose that would be the origin of getting them to study. We were going to have to compete and a lot of businesses were family owned. They would pass them on, management was something that was dead. They came in and had a gin and tonic and looked at the post and the world was kept going. I knew that would not work, the was not going to compete with the Germans and the French people.
With regard to business studies in the Leaving Certificate, I’d say it was that committee that I set up, the inspectors. I hadn’t enough expert knowledge and they were to supply the expert knowledge and fill out the plan. They were doing the whole range of what should be done.
I don’t recall the RTC’s and that would go into them. There is a very bad records department in the Department of Education. I often asked them for things and they hadn’t them.

The Polytechnic was a new higher education institution developing in the United Kingdom. The first third level qualifications in business studies outside of the established universities in the U.K. were growing in these institutions.

The Council for National Academic Awards was also established to grant awards in the Polytechnics. The National Council for Educational Awards was set up to grant awards for the RTC’s at a later date. This body when it came about copied many of the practices of the CNAA in the United Kingdom. What influences the development of business studies in the United Kingdom had on the setting up of structures in Ireland brought the following responses:                   

It probably did had influence through the committee that I set up of Inspectors. The inspectors knew what to do and where to go.  
I cannot recall if the OECD or Whitaker referred to business studies. Department of Education memorandums did not refer to business studies. I remember those costly subjects, I tried to get combinations of schools.
The atmosphere at the time, Sean Lemass the Taoiseach was pressing hard for this type of activity - competition he used to say “you won’t slide on your backside to success”. He had expressions like that you know. You have to work, you have to study, and that was going on all the time from him. The Irish Management Institute was his - he asked to set it up.
The inspectors in the Department of Education dealt with syllabus content in respect of business studies subjects and other subjects.

6        The Ministers own Schooling

According to Atkinson (1969) it is one of the liabilities of an educationalist’s work that he or she must be a pragmatist. There can be little doubt that a knowledge of the past will contribute little towards the likely course of future events. Human life changes constantly never repeating in exactly the same form. However, a persons personal experiences can contribute to the development of the future. Hillery illustrated his own school and university experiences:               

The National School impressed me most. There were two or three lads, that were very bright, it did not do them any harm. One of them became a tradesman and he became very well off but the rest emigrated. It kept at me. You had a lot of people in secondary education because they had the money. Which again meant they got into the professions because they had the money. The only real test of people was the ones who got into the Civil Service. The Church took the top.  
When I was a student in University College Dublin, I had the idea of a campus university. The old idea of the university being the students themselves, working off one another, talking. In my time I thought we were too much of a technical school, a medical technical school, it would be nicer to have a broader approach. The original idea was that different people studied, they probably did not study so hard, but they mixed and got to know each other.
There was a terrific intellectual pride, especially the fellows going to Maynooth, the top of the class and they were very proud fellows getting great marks in Greek and Latin. When they went back to school they didn’t have a life, they didn’t change their minds. They were very good at Greek and Latin. They were very bright and got involved in sport and that.
I did the matriculation examination, I was only sixteen when I went through to medicine. I did Maths, English, Irish, Latin, French, Physics and Chemistry. I got good marks in Rockwell College but I didn’t think much of the secondary school physics and chemistry.
I don’t know how I got through the first examination in university. We did no study the first year. The first exam was Physics and Chemistry and I got through that without knowing how. I thought the most useful subject for medicine was Latin. Illnesses and syndromes were in Latin, and if you got the Latin name, you had the first couple of sentences of the answer. I understood it better.

People in class with me without Physics and Chemistry from their Leaving Certificate studies were not at a disadvantage. They did not fail their examinations because of it. The first year in university was a complete study in itself, you could learn it from scratch.

I remember I did a BSc. degree and when my son was doing his first med I said I can help you. He said it had all changed and he was right. I did the BSc. after the second med in Physiology, Anthropology and Biochemistry.
Latin was a great help in medicine. The only time I saw a person in difficulty was a student who had studied everything through Irish. He had to have a dictionary to learn things in English.
If the universities are giving exemptions now from pre - med there must be higher standards. That means they are doing it well. I thought you meant a student with prior knowledge of the subjects would be free to use their time getting into mischief.

According to Flanagan, Morgan and Kellaghan (2000) 48% of all students failed to graduate on time in the eleven Institutes of Technology in Ireland. Students failing their examinations and dropping out for various reasons are always part of the higher education system. Hillery recalled his experiences with this respect of third level education:  

             

Medicine there was a big drop out. I remember answering questions in the Dail about people who failed their first year. My answer was that there was more reasons for failure than the brain content. Fellows go wild when they get out of secondary school. There is more reasons for failure than brains. Some of the students were drinking and carousing and had no interest. There wasn’t always a vocational thing you know.  
Wastage in my time was fellows going to England. They would become doctors but they were wasted as far as the State was concerned.
Drop out in medicine in my day - the phenomenon of the chronic medic - fellows that were there for years and years - they kept on repeating.
 As I said already there are causes of failure other than lack of brains. People away from home, away from discipline and away from supervision. Oh yes commitment, this is where a lot of people who didn’t grow up with their father and mother, uncles, friends having persisted in a long course and dedicated - they accepted that’s the way to do it.
I must say going into medicine in my time, it was an awfully long journey. Parents liked getting people off earning early - in teaching, you would be qualified in two years. Very few could afford university. If you got into the civil service or the guards you got paid.
If it was only the university it was cheap for parents it was the accommodation that was dear. Keeping yourself and the cost to the parents. People living in the cities had a better chance of education. In Clare I always thought the Queens Colleges in Cork, Dublin, Galway, Belfast were well spaced.

7.         Reflections as Minister for Education

In a period of six years, in a time of change, a Minister for Education in an Irish Government, there may be a variety of issues that he would have reflected on. Some reflections recalled:          

I remember the Secretary of the Department o Education saying to me that it should not be all clever fellows in the University. They should get used to mixing with people who are not so smart. There’s something in that. A thing that bothered me at the time, was a TD from West Limerick, he was a Fine Gael TD. He was a teacher, he used to bother about untidiness, people being untidy. He used to be trying to teach the students to get up. I thought of bringing in Civics, I think we brought in a civics book. I notice now it is in the early stage of being well off and they’re all a bit ruff.  
I always thought when I was Minister for Education, that you should have yourself fully trained to make a contribution - that’s business isn’t it. You have developed your talents and your capacities so that you can make a contribution.
I remember a friend of mine he was lecturing in Trinity College, he would rather a student didn’t do Physics and Chemistry, he would rather the students were starting from scratch. A lot of lecturers in University, felt that what the students learned at school was no use. Now you are obviously into a much higher secondary school level of Physics and Chemistry, I suppose all standards are higher now.
The level of education in the West of Ireland was the way out of poverty. Out of future poverty you know. If there was five or sometimes ten children in a house, there was one going to be kept at home, the others had to find their own and education was the way into a better living - lot of them didn’t get that.
Extraordinary to think of those people realising that they had been let down.
I remember clearly saying that we were not going to have the eleven plus.
I said to people I had trouble with the Bishops. They replied “How could you have trouble with them”? They were powerful and they owned the schools they owned the structures.

8.         Hillery’s Other Ministeries

Dr. Hillery became Minister for Education in the Irish Government in 1959 and held that Ministry until 1965. Many writers and education academics including Mulcahy (1981), Coolahan (1981), O’Buachalla (1988) and Atkinson (1969) agree that Hillery planted the seeds for change in Irish Education. In 1965/1966 he was Minister for Industry and Commerce. In 1966 he became the first Minister for Labour and in 1969 became Minister for Foreign Affairs. He held this ministry until 1973 when Ireland joined the European Union (the Common Market) when he became the first European Commissioner for Ireland in Social Affairs. In 1976 he became President of Ireland and held that appointment for the following fourteen years, the maximum period of office for a President under the Irish Constitution.            

Well Industry and Commerce was the first one after education, and it was after an Election. Education was very difficult and the delegations, trade unions were pretty severe. Delegations would take three or four hours, they would not go out and they would not stop talking. Debates going on forever. I remember one day I went into the restaurant Sean Lemass and Jack Lynch were there at the table. Lemass said to Jack Lynch or someone we will have to give Hillery a new job after the election. After the election he put me into Industry and Commerce. This was a beauty of a job, there was travel, there was everything. I got fixed on the trade unions, they were in CHAOS total CHAOS. Anyone could go on strike. A trade unionist said to me one time anyone could go on strike “all I need is a card and a clothes peg and I’ll stop anyone”. He was joking. I got absorbed in this and it was no place to go if you had ambitions. I was playing and dealing with them. There was strike after strike. There was more money and no system for division. The only way they knew was to go on strike. Then you had leap frogging. Because if you went on strike, a fellow coming in a month later got a better deal than you with another union.  
So the whole thing was crazy, Macintee tried to bring in legislation, to have at least one person negotiating for an enterprise, but the National Union of Railway men tested it in the Supreme Court and it was found unconstitutional so it fell. I was less and less travelling abroad while all this was going on.
I said to Sean Lemass one day we should have a Department of Labour and he looked at me. A week or ten days after, I was in the Dail, with some debate and I sat longside him. He said “if I set up a Department of Labour would you take it”? I said ok. He wrote down some notes and stood up and announced it, that there would be a Department of Labour.
Friends of mine were watching me, watching my interests, said that was a very bad move. That’s a bad move, you won’t get anywhere now. It was all trouble all the way - I liked it, I enjoyed it.
There were some good people in it. I got to know the Trade Unions, they had a tough time of it, they got no rest any day of the week. It was a very interesting time and it had to be gone through. Time came when you had Atley and Cassells people who know where the real interest lies.
Redundancy retraining and resettlement was developed on the assumption that you would never again hold a job for life. Jack Conway of the Liberty magazine said we were going to have unemployment, and we were going to cause it. He was very difficult and I made an attack on him.
I asked the Unions, what is your loyalty? “To our members, members of other unions and other workers”. I said what about the country? “Oh no”. You could not see the country progressing.
The Department of Labour was a good idea, but it was a bad career idea for me - that what friends were saying at the time. I was not looking for any personal ambitions at the time. I was interested in what could be done. In the end it turned out well.

Dr. Hillery became Irelands first European Commissioner when Ireland joined the European Union in 1973. He explains:             

Our application was dropped in 1961 when Degaul knocked Britain. In 1967 all my thinking was to be members of the European Community. We were not fit in 1961. We had to become fit. It suited us to go out with the British that time. The fact was - Lemass always said, we had to work on the assumption. Again I don’t think we would have made progress if we didn’t have that aim there.  
I remember top people in the multinationals being very worried about the criticism they were getting and they said “employees wouldn’t be happy if we were criticised like that”.
In the Commission its funny - I liked to hear the Belgium’s in the Commission “the Irish did it very well, they were getting money out of it”. The other countries were not able to do it as well and they wanted money too.

    

  9.         Concluding Comments

This interview with Dr. Hillery which lasted almost two hours, concentrated on his insights as Minister for Education. The interview attempted to address two themes. Firstly, the development of education particularly at second level. The development of second level education would drive third level education as it sets the seed corn for natural progression. Secondly, the interview attempted to focus on the development of business studies education. Business studies education developed at second and third level. Irish educational change may be summarised as follows:  

 1.         The ministers own background from a National School in Clare - rural Ireland and his practice as a medical practitioner gave him unique insights into families and lack of opportunities.

2.          Sean Lemass drive to push the economy was very important. Lemass’ teamwork with Hillery was of enormous help in expanding educational opportunities in the sixties and planting the seeds for change.

3.          Hillery also put the fundamentals in place for a binary system of third level education as distinct from a comprehensive system.

 4.         The complacency of the Higher Education Commission proved the necessity at the time for a technological sector- a sector that would also grant degrees and postgraduate qualifications outside of the university sector.

 5.        Probably because of his training as a medical doctor, he was able to read the mind set of the cabinet members he needed to support him and of other stakeholders in education.

 6.        Third level educational developments appeared to be supply driven with little planning. More planning could have provided benefits such as training of academic staff for the new third level institutions. The gaps might have been satisfied earlier with better planning in the early sixties.

There is no doubt that the interviewee set the agenda for change in Irish Education during his period as Minister for Education 1959 to 1965. His passion for change at second level transformed second and third level. At second level all students were provided with the opportunity of completing their Leaving Certificate. The range of subjects was also extended to include business studies in the late sixties. The church monopoly of second level education was significantly changed. There were much more students prepared for entry to third level and the creation of Regional Technical Colleges filled an amazing gap in Irish third level education.

Finally, if Hillery hadn’t been Minister for Education at the time would another person have equally made the same changes to Irish education? This is an arguable point. However, his background and experience was unique. A medical practitioner he had insights into family life in rural Ireland and having started his own education in a National School in the late nineteen twenties in County Clare. In addition his unique relationship with Sean Lemass was significant in implementing innovative changes in Irish education.

T.J.Rigney is Head of Business Studies at the Cork Institute of Technology, Cork, Ireland  

REFERENCES

          Atkinson, N. (1969). Irish Education, a History of Educational Institutions. Allen Figgis, Dublin. p.170, 200.

        Clancy, P. (2000). Educational Change in Ireland in the late sixties and early fifties. Unpublished interview with Dr. Clancy, of University College Dublin on 27th July 2000.

        Coolahan, J. (1981). Irish Education, History and Structure. Institute of Public Administration, Dublin.

        Flanagan, R., Morgan, M. and Kellaghan (2000). A study of non completion in Institutes of Technology Courses. Educational Research Centre, Dublin p.p. 18-26.

        Logan, J. (1999). A History of the Teachers Union of Ireland. T.U.I. Orwell Road, Rathgar, Dublin.

        Mulcahy, D.G. (1981). Curriculum and Policy in Irish Post Primary Education, Institute of Public Administration, Dublin p.21.

        O’Buachalla, S. (1988). Education Policy in Twentieth Century Ireland, Wolfhound Press, Dublin. p. 158-159, 290-282.

        White,A.(1995). Higher Education in Ireland, Thesis on Education. Dublin University, Trinity College, Dublin.